Christianity Thoughts: A Conversation Pt. 1

Speaker 1: 0:01

Hello, this is Blair Stanisleo with the Happy Lion Center. Welcome to our podcast, Mystical and Infamous, where we have playful and easy conversations about anything mystical, getting to the heart of all things, strange and weird. Join us in a bit of magical tomfoolery, spreading the alchemy of love and light, and now we invite you to enjoy the show. So a few minutes ago we just started with Kathy, was kind of mesmerized or amused at the fact that I was interested in talking with her. And tell me why. Why were you curious? Why I would be interested in talking to you?

Speaker 2: 0:37

Well, just because I just I don't know what I have to say, I I've never I've never been in this kind of a setting and conversations with people and and being a teacher in a classroom, but not in a, not in a sense that somebody really kind of wants to hear what I have to say because I can be kind of, I think, kind of pompous.

Speaker 1: 1:01

Oh well, I don't. I wouldn't call you pompous in any way.

Speaker 2: 1:05

I don't know, I I know that I can when you call it, I can kind of get carried away on a theme that I happen to love, and it will sound like I'm lecturing and it probably is a form of it, but it's just my knowledge base and I just let go and and then I just think, yeah, well, you kind of just told everybody this is the way they have to think, and that isn't what I mean ever.

Speaker 1: 1:34

Ever. It's interesting you say that because I've never gotten that impression from you when you express things. It's always been. This is what I think and this is what I've concluded. And you know and I mean maybe some of it said I don't necessarily feel the need to attach to any one way of thinking.

Speaker 2: 1:51

But that might be what happens when I'm doing that, that thing.

Speaker 1: 1:58

Where you just talk about what you like to talk about. So I did want to say that. Okay, kathy, you're older than me.

Speaker 2: 2:07

Yes, I'm very much older and I'm not going to be your grandmother.

Speaker 1: 2:11

I don't know about that. The the first comment I had. Of course I was thinking well, you're older, maybe that's something you're thinking, but the first thought I had was I've always been somebody who has had friends who are older and, matter of fact, I connect better with people who are older. It doesn't mean I don't connect with people my age. I don't have any that I know of any like major restriction there. Astrologically speaking, saturn is in my 11th house, which is the house of friendship, so most of my friends are going to be mature. They don't have to be physically older, but they are going to be more mature. So if I'm friends with a younger person, either my age or younger it's going to be because they've got some sort of, you know, mature kind of quality. So, anyways, I think that's part of it and the other part that I really appreciate. I need to go turn on the battery for my computer. Yeah, I'll try to remove that, okay. The other part that I really appreciate about you is, although I grew up in the South and there's a lot of heavy religion largely Christianity in the South, I didn't really feel super attached to any of that, and so I've had different experiences and I think our conversations allow me to. I think I had said this earlier. Basically, our conversations allow me to affirm what I really believe in about the Christian religion and also confirm what I necessarily, don't necessarily completely believe in, like it's a different framework in my mind. Okay, you guys think of things I don't know on a particular topic in this way and it didn't align with something that I was thinking. If they talk long enough, usually eventually I can understand where they're coming from, but there are parts of it that I don't agree with, I don't ascribe to. To be fair, when I was younger I would have definitely identified myself as a Christian, but I don't think I would identify myself as a Christian now. It doesn't mean I don't believe in what I definitely 100% believe in a higher power. I do believe in an afterlife or whatever you want to call it a different timeline life, but I don't really ascribe to the things that were fairly prominent in some of the experiences I had through religion, which was usually through my friends we did touch on.

Speaker 1: 5:10

I thought we would just talk about religion. Why not? Because this is the taboo show, right? We're supposed to talk about all the hidden things or things you're supposed to keep secret.

Speaker 1: 5:19

But I grew up, for the first couple of years in my life not in my life in my schooling I went to an Episcopalian school. So we had chapel every Wednesday and it was very formal. There wasn't a dress code, but it was very organized and structured. The service itself when you would go to an Episcopal church. Later I found that was very similar to Catholicism. You go to a Catholic church. It's very, very similar. I think there was only one or two things I remember. Oh yeah, you don't do this at the Catholic church, you do this at the Catholic church, so you don't do it at the Episcopalian church.

Speaker 1: 5:58

And what I did notice as I became friends with many other people in the South most of them are Christians is that the different religions really did have a very different take on things and I knew that there was a significant layer of guilt that a lot of people would assume specifically in the Catholic church, but not everybody, because I have had friends who are Catholic and actually a lot of friends who are Catholic and don't have that overbearing guilt. That kind of runs their life and makes them kind of miserable. But it does occur, it's well known. I didn't stick around long enough in Episcopalian school to notice the difference there.

Speaker 1: 6:42

But the other religions, christian denominations that I had experienced, there were a lot of things that confused me. There was a lot of it was still guilt. It was like, you know, it was kind of the they say the message, which is nice, but then before the message and after the message, and even sprinkled throughout the message, it was always like this intent to convert or. And then my question as a young person was like well, why do I need to convert? There must be something wrong with me. And then it was confirmed yes, there's something wrong with you, You're sinful, you know like, and it never really honestly resonated with me. So I did associate a lot of negativity Through that and just seeing the placement of religion in people's lives and how it, how it kind of it, definitely drives things. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, but I think if you got that wrong motivation it's it's not helpful. Like I had a very dear friend of mine, my best friend in high school, who has since passed away. Last couple of years she died, yeah, really surprising and.

Speaker 1: 7:58

She was a devout Baptist, southern Baptist, and we were friends really close in college for a long time. After we were friends, I had moved away so I wasn't in her life every day, but we kept in contact and you know, we had kind of drifted apart. In a fact, when I started studying astrology, of course I wanted to talk to her about it, but then I thought I don't know if I can talk to her about it, so I refrained until I felt confident in expressing. Really what I wanted to express to her was Look, I just started studying astrology. It's Scientific, mathematical proof that God is there and it's in everybody, and I was so excited to share that with her. But I couldn't because I shared it with her. I tried to talk to her and she actually said Blair, I just can't, I can't process that and I think that was because of the associations with spirituality and astrology, which is not incorrect.

Speaker 1: 8:55

But it's not a religion like you don't have to believe. It's not a religion in the sense of the Christian Faith is specifically the Baptist. Christian faith believes that you have to be, you don't have to like, Commit yourself and you're not committing perjury or you know what is it? I've forgotten what it is when you're defying the church, whatever the term is. There's the term for it Blast. It's not blast for me. I don't know some some sort of term like that, where it's like you know, if you idolizing something else, so there's an air of feeling like you need to idolize, but that's not really what it is.

Speaker 1: 9:31

But she just couldn't even hear me. Like the conversation completely stopped and I felt like I Don't know if it's because at that time it was when I was actually moving farther away and it was just the distance that came between us, or maybe it was just something in her life, but she did. We never even we never talked about it. I didn't ever approach it again because I really felt like she wasn't going to be able to receive that. But Anyways, that part of it's really sad for me, but I just I guess the whole purpose of talking about this is I think it's interesting how religion, if it's not just the spirituality and you bring the human component into it, then it starts to have the same flaws that humans have. Yes, it's political, right political, and yeah, all the parts. Yeah, catholic is definitely. I mean like that's the strongest political one.

Speaker 2: 10:28

It's governed by, by the Pope and and the Cardinals, you know the, the school of Cardinals and and it's the College of Cardinals and yeah, that is very political and it rules the politics itself rules on every single aspect of a Catholics, a Roman Catholic's life right. It rules on that. Now, not all those rules are equal and that's where the study of theology comes in. Mm-hmm, because there's just certain things to consider yourself to be a Roman Catholic that you must believe, and if you can't, that's you know, that's not a flaw within you is simply you know that's not where you're gonna go, and the most basic of that is the Creed. If you can, if you can embrace the, the, the Creed itself, which is about God, the Father, god the Son, god, the Holy Spirit and the church, if you can go down that list and you can buy into that and accept that that's Roman Catholic. I'm not gonna speak to the other Catholic faiths, but that particular one is, is absolutely essential.

Speaker 2: 11:51

Now there are some other theological teachings that are Non-negotiable, but then there are these others that get a lot of flack and a lot of Opinion going on and they make sensational talk. For one thing, it has to do with women being in the in the hierarchy, in, you know, the women deacons. That's the first step into priesthood. Okay, but we have two tracks for for a male who is married, and he can he can embrace the diaconate and Be a part of that. And his wife in order for him to do that, his wife has to be in agreement. I mean, he can't just be a deacon, but if she dies, one of the requirements is that if that he can't remarry, if if he wants to remain an active deacon. Now, I know that there are circumstances in which people have been granted petition to remarry and that kind of thing, but by and large, that's the teaching.

Speaker 1: 13:09

Well, I find that interesting because, you know, being a widow I just happened. Not that I was looking for this, but I did come across the statistics that men remarry if they become a widow, or they remarry way more frequently and faster than women remarry.

Speaker 2: 13:27

Or they stay in a partnership of some kind because they really don't want to not be without a partner.

Speaker 1: 13:33

Yeah Well, I'm sure there's lots of reasons I mean, there's many words we could say about that, but statistically that is true. So it's interesting that that is a. That's a perfect example of how it really does impact every facet of your life.

Speaker 2: 13:49

And one of the things that happens with theology, which is at least in the Roman Catholic Church, is there are many things that will change and they change over a long period of time, because one of the things they watch for is what kind of changes have taken place in the laity throughout the world that has a unity to it that could shift the way the doctrine, or to shift and create doctrine around something or to change it, and it takes that kind of watching that that change taking place in the world. So you can see how long it can take.

Speaker 1: 14:34

Oh yeah, I mean well, and also every action, and also the definition around women see.

Speaker 1: 14:38

Yeah, well, that's. It's funny too, because you know, there's a lot of references, even when people look back at the history of women. I mean, the first and most obvious reference to the role of women to me has always been the Bible. Look at what's in the Bible and this is the role that they played. And da da da, I'm like, yeah, you're right, that's exactly. I mean not that I think it's because it was. It was on some level recording right Of things that were happening, and so it was stories. Even if it was not, like, you know, a camera watching nothing happen with a non-objective perspective, it still is a story of something that happened and it helps you to identify those roles that we play in society. And it was very it's very easy to see the roles that women would play, and specifically roles they would not play, and that's just one example where you know, can they become priests or what have you?

Speaker 1: 15:33

And I think even the other other Christian religions that I've heard. To have a female leader is very unusual.

Speaker 2: 15:41

Yeah, it has been. I would say there's been changes. You know, there is a whole bevy of priests and bishops that are are Roman, have been identified in the past as Roman Catholic and they are legitimate priests and they are legitimate bishops that have been properly ordained. But they were ordained in international waters so that there couldn't be any any particular diocese that would be attached to their being ordained. So they they have their ordination now because they have their bishops that can ordain.

Speaker 1: 16:24

Interesting, but I looked up, I looked up a long time ago. There was a. I was I mean it's a crazy thing. But I mean I was like, oh, I could go, I could go be a monk. That really wouldn't be the path of a life. So I look it up but of course, no, you can't be a monk, You're a woman, right, but yeah, there are places where you do, but there's plenty of articles and information about how, exactly like that, where it's like, there's this part that you know, there's a large part of people who think, no, you can't be a true monk because you're not male, and so therefore, we haven't established all these things. But I did. I did find one fairly quickly and easily. I think it was an. It was in Asia somewhere, I'm sure it was a, I'm sure it was a Buddhist monk.

Speaker 2: 17:09

Probably.

Speaker 1: 17:10

Yeah, yeah, but still, there's still taboo around the fact that it's females.

Speaker 2: 17:16

In the Catholic Roman Catholic church. Not so in the sense that they they just because you're a monk does not make you a priest. Okay, so you have orders of monks that are male, orders of monks that that will have priesthood as well as brotherhood, and the brothers are not priests, they might not even be deacons, but they are attached to and belong to the monastery. We have women too. I went to school with the Benedictine sisters in Bismarck. They are definitely a monastery, you know, and they have a. You know. Their leader is. Is is the same leader and quality of any other monastery, male or female. In great falls we have the poor Claire sisters and they are an enclosed monastery, which means that they stay in the monastery. Now, the ones here, because they're so tiny, they have to go out and do certain things, but they have very definite regulations around what those will be, what time they will be and how they will do that. But if you go back East to one of their monasteries, they don't leave. They absolutely don't leave.

Speaker 1: 18:32

They have certain people in the world or East United States.

Speaker 2: 18:36

Eastern United States, but that would be true throughout the world. With that, with the poor Claire's.

Speaker 1: 18:42

Or they called. Are they called monks or they called you?

Speaker 2: 18:45

know, we've heard they're all of our monasteries. I don't know how I want to say it. They are particular orders, okay, and they have a name. Yes.

Speaker 2: 19:02

And you have a particular vision and mission. Within that name there are many, many, many Franciscans, the poor Claire sisters and our Franciscans. Richard Rohr, who is a leading speaker on all things contemplative in the United States, is very much a Franciscan sister. Jose Abdei I wrote about shoes Franciscan and they all have different kinds of life around, what it means to follow Francis of Assisi and Claire, who was his friend.

Speaker 1: 19:35

Okay, okay. So basically, they're identified by a group of people who agree to follow the life pattern. Yes, a way of life. Yeah, a certain way of life. So then they call themselves I'm of the blank order. Yes, Okay. So then what is a nun? Here's the ignorant person.

Speaker 2: 19:56

It's not ignorant, it's just choices of words. Sisters generally at least this is what I remember Sisters are orders that are out in the world and working. The Providence sisters, who were very much a part of the Great Falls and I went to high school in a boarding school in Sprague, washington with Providence sisters. They were sisters, they weren't nuns. They didn't live in an enclosure. The poor Claire sisters would be nuns, but we will call them sister How's that for confusing.

Speaker 1: 20:32

Yeah, very confusing, yeah. So anyways, that's sort of, but we don't call them monks, you don't call them monks.

Speaker 2: 20:41

No, but they live in a monastery. Yeah, we have an abbot, just like the monks have an abbot, you know.

Speaker 1: 20:48

Yeah, so definitely some connections there.

Speaker 2: 20:52

And I don't know if there are any male-female monasteries. It seems to me in my head I've heard of a couple of them. Don't know if that's Roman Catholic or if it would be Episcopalian or Anglican, because they and Lutheran, they all have orders of nuns and priests. I think I'm not. I know they have orders of nuns, yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:20

Just so we're not talking ignorant, I looked up in the Webster Mary Webster dictionary. Just a monk is a man who is a member of a religious order and lives in a monastery, also a friar.

Speaker 2: 21:32

Oh yes, there's the friars, and they're usually associated with through Francis, francis of Assisi. Okay, he called his brothers friars.

Speaker 1: 21:41

So just by that term itself, it really it specifically refers to a man, which I do kind of find really interesting too, because if you are familiar with other languages besides English, most languages have masculine and feminine identities for words, right? Yes, we don't do that in English. There's no, it's not male or female. It might have a feeling of that, but it's not, it's not formal and it's not said, and you don't change the part of your speech to align with the masculine or the feminine.

Speaker 2: 22:16

Yeah, and you know, for years in writing in English we always took the masculine form for singular Right and that was to be assumed, that would be masculine and feminine.

Speaker 1: 22:33

Right, exactly. And then I think I know that when I had that argument with or it wasn't an argument, but discussion with a teacher or my mother or somebody about do I, you say he or she, or what do I say? And and you know my confusion around well, it's not a he and you know the answer was well, you can use one. So I would write one in there.

Speaker 1: 22:58

Right but but that always seemed to confuse people, at least when I was growing up, writing things like why are you putting one? Okay, well, that's obviously confusing. And now look at what we're doing. Now we're like what program do you want to use?

Speaker 2: 23:09

Yeah, you're better off doing that yeah.

Speaker 1: 23:12

Yeah, it doesn't really matter. I mean, I don't think it matters that much, but it is interesting that the word itself actually refers to males. So maybe that is just adding to that societal opinion, or in religious opinion of you know, females can't be a monk per se.

Speaker 2: 23:28

And that's probably true. Yeah, that's probably true. Yeah, so, so I would guess that the women didn't care.

Speaker 1: 23:36

Probably yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:40

Those orders of sisters were very, very powerful, very, very strong. And when you read any of the, the orders and their, their beginning leadership, oh yeah, yeah, if you had to come, if you had to take on Mother Superior, you better be ready, because she would be educated, she would be intelligent and she would be sensible. That didn't always resonate well with certain people in the hierarchy. Yeah, I kind of admired them.

Speaker 1: 24:18

Yeah, People say I've heard multiple times over from many different places and people don't say this out in public. So to say it on a podcast, no matter how many people listen, is a little bit taboo. But I'm going to say it because that's what the whole point is.

Speaker 2: 24:33

Okay, let me hear you say it I need the microphone.

Speaker 1: 24:38

People say that the feminine energy, so obviously that would be predominantly females, but there are men who can contain feminine energy as well, right?

Speaker 2: 24:50

Yes.

Speaker 1: 24:50

But the feminine energy is actually a better leader because of similar qualities of what you just described, in the sense that it's it's receptive and it's responsive, and it's not. You know there's there's a distinction with a masculine energy Like. The masculine energy is to go out and fight, to go out and talk. So even if they're just talking, they get up in the room and they speak loudly or they speak clearly or they kind of dominate the room, whereas a feminine energy is not necessarily going to do that. It doesn't mean that they can't be heard. Here we are on a podcast which is put out on the internet and whoever chooses to listen listens, right, it's not on I don't even know whatever the biggest radio station is, and it's not on NBC and it's not on BBC or anything like that, right? So that would be more of a masculine in the front, you know, stage kind of thing. But I have heard multiple times over that the feminine energy is actually a better energy to lead because it is so compassionate and so responsive to what people need.

Speaker 1: 25:58

I mean, if actually I've seen articles on there was an article and I don't know where it was, it was years ago when COVID happened. It was looking at the responses of leaders of the countries and the responses of the countries that were led by females were much smoother, less fear instilling. It was a. They had better based on this article, they had better results, even like immediately, like quickly. The short term results I don't mean now I haven't looked at it in a couple of years, but the short term results of a country that was led by a female and the differences in the choices that they made was really enlightening. It was really interesting yeah.

Speaker 2: 26:48

I'd love to see that.

Speaker 1: 26:49

Oh, I think you can find it. Just type up COVID. I'm going to do it right now, while we're on here. Responses you know, women leaders? I don't know what the article was.

Speaker 2: 27:13

I'll find it. I'll find it. That's interesting.

Speaker 1: 27:15

Yeah, it was really interesting because it's not secret, because it's out there, it quietly, which is a more feminine response, right, it quietly kind of showcases the strength that a woman or a feminine energy, not even a woman right, we know that men can have that as well.

Speaker 2: 27:41

Yeah, I think, though, that sometimes we can be headed in a direction on the feminine side and forget that we also have very strong and beautiful masculine sides in leadership. I'm not seeing, I'm seeing a lot of fear response when we have war and that kind of thing going on for a decision, but I do know that in other areas of our world we have those who are very and it isn't so much having a high feminine side. They may, but they're just quality leadership, and that is male, and I think there tends to be a putting down or a dissing of men generally, yes, and I think that a lot of men hear that.

Speaker 1: 28:42

Oh, they definitely hear it. My husband's one of them and he complains about doesn't do a lot, but when we get on this topic it's I've forgotten. He says the word woke. I'm not even sure if I know what he's talking about.

Speaker 1: 28:55

I think he thinks woke is something different than I might think it is, but either way, I actually remember I was I connected with some people on the Internet and they invited me to go do something with them on the Internet, like watching a movie or something I don't know, and through the conversation we were talking I think we were talking about maybe another person that was in the chat room where we were or something like that and they introduced me to some public figures that I had not been aware of, and one of them was I don't remember the person's name I want to say it's like Rachel, I have no idea.

Speaker 1: 29:34

I just look the person up and she was supposed to be this loud, obnoxious feminist or I would describe her as obnoxious, and I watched a couple of things on what she did and I don't know. She had her shirt off, so she was totally bare-chested and of course it was done in a way to protest and I think that the going shirtless was a protest in itself and I kind of get it. I don't really fully get it, but I don't get it, yeah, the whole time. I kind of get it. The good taste and the bad taste.

Speaker 2: 30:15

Sorry, no I totally agree.

Speaker 1: 30:17

But it's like okay, do you feel oppressed because we expect you to wear a shirt? You're expected to wear a shirt and now you feel liberated. Well, I mean, it's really not that big of a deal. There's plenty of tribes that don't wear shirts. That's why it's not a big deal. But what I was confused about was how does showing your chest make you more feminine? That doesn't make you. It makes you kind of more masculine in a way, because you're kind of being aggressive with it, right, and that was so in that sense, like that doesn't do anything. It's shocking. Yeah, it's shocking. It's done for a shock factor. Absolutely, that's what it was.

Speaker 2: 30:56

And you know, whenever there has to be sensationalism, I have to wonder how strong is that ego?

Speaker 1: 31:00

Oh yeah, no, definitely was a strong ego there.

Speaker 1: 31:03

And it's been my experience that with males I don't know that I could clearly identify it within females. So we were talking about masculine energy and feminine energy. But it's easier for me to identify this masculine energy with a male. And I have experienced times with specific males in my life who maybe they're not, as you know, I don't know in tune with things spiritually, or like you're not a male, we're not having that conversation right, like we're not. It's more logical for females to have this conversation. But then I've also had times in a dynamic situation where things were occurring that the male and it's consistent, and males are the ones that step in and try, and they try and shift the energy so like they can feel when women are for lack of a better term kind of being catty or you know, acting like girls. I mean, you know, I've been around my whole life so I know you.

Speaker 1: 32:00

Sometimes we just act like idiots and it kind of get caught up in it and have a difficulty letting it go. Hormonal maybe might be a term that people use. Anyways, they see that and they're like they don't say anything specific, but then they go and do something to completely distract us, to help us relax that part, yeah, and Go to the depths, yeah, and I just have a hard time believing that even all parts of that male who is doing that, they're not aware of what they're doing, and that is so needed. I mean, I can't tell you how many times there has occurred for me where a male did that, and one time it was my son, on my daughter's birthday, and we were so upset and my daughter was like flipping a lid because we had, well, we had gone off in Montana and there was no cell service and we were looking for this place that was out in the woods and you know, like I don't know where it is.

Speaker 1: 32:58

Well, turn down that way. And you go down that way and the water is coming up, like it's already in the road some, and that's a creek and we're in a Prius and it's like I don't think we can go that way. Oh, this is a driveway and we had to turn around. Well, we couldn't turn around because there was no extra road. So my daughter flipped out. She was just nervous, and so it was her birthday and we were trying to do something for her, and so my son was there and he was trying to do his best to have us have a good experience, and then here he is acting like a goofball. So for the next 30 or 45 minutes I don't think he was even aware, but he was actually doing things to make us both more comfortable and allow us to release that.

Speaker 2: 33:37

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 33:38

That's a beautiful expression of a masculine.

Speaker 2: 33:40

Absolutely, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1: 33:44

So yeah, I don't ascribe to the whole, you know. I mean it is interesting to hear, it would be nice to know you know, or to see a feminine receptivity, but I think it's more, if you're more balanced in your masculine and feminine, you wind up having a better experience overall and it comes across as a leader usually if they're in that role who is knowledgeable and well skilled and just does a really good job at leading you know when to go into that feminine energy and when to go in the masculine energy.

Speaker 2: 34:17

Yeah, I think it all comes down to listening.

Speaker 1: 34:19

Yeah, it does, and whether that be masculine or feminine.

Speaker 2: 34:23

Those who learn how to listen, learn how to be a good negotiators and compromisers and assist that for people. I don't know why our Congress has such a struggle with that, because they I'm sure many of them were political scientists and they would have had to learn that that kind of art of compromising, negotiation. But it begins with listening.

Speaker 1: 34:52

I also had a friend who went to what do you call it when you go to school? For it to be a priest.

Speaker 2: 35:01

Going to school, to what To be a priest, you mean theology school or seminary Seminary that's what he went to.

Speaker 1: 35:08

He went to seminary and he almost finished and then he changed his mind. He was one of the most interesting people I have ever met. His name is Juan Torres, he lives in Mobile and he just got an award. I saw that he put a picture of himself which is unlike him, so it's like five months late. But the most interesting conversations. And he said to me one time he said well, you know, to get to, to become a priest, you basically have a degree in sociology.

Speaker 2: 35:36

You have to have. Yeah, you're going to be counseling people, you're going to I mean, even if it's just a two sentence thing in the confession, but you're going to have people who are married come to a priest to talk to them. But he's got he, because that's what we have. He has to have his act together there. He has to. Yeah, lori's not very good at it and the very pastoral ones are excellent.

Speaker 1: 36:04

Yeah, and I I'm sure he does this. Now I'm not, I don't live there, right, so I don't see him all the time anymore and I also actually quit working with him. I've just, I've just have a couple of years of working with him, but every time I ever saw him interact it was so amazing because he was able to take whatever was happening with such grace and such awareness, and I think some of it came from the sociology background rate that he understood how people in general act. Then he had that deep connection with people. But just just a true inspiration and I think that's what happens with the people who are really drawn to being leaders in the church is that they, they have that inkling. It doesn't really, I don't really think it matters if they're masculine, they're male or female.

Speaker 1: 36:58

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